Discussion Paper Responses

Discussion Paper Responses

Following are responses to our Discussion Paper on the Use of Disinfectant Cleaners on Environmental Surfaces in Health Care and Other Public Facilities. We welcome your contribution.

We have been most pleased by the general comments and questions we have received from customers using ECOgent. Read for yourself the experiences of some of our users.

From: Jay Clay [mailto:jayclayca@yahoo.ca]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 12:44 PM
To: cogentenvironmental@rogers.com
Subject: ECOgent for Nursery Schools

To Whom it May Concern:

I am an ECE teacher at a nursery school. I have been looking for a safe cleaner/disinfector for cleaning our tables before and after our snack. The public health office in Ottawa indicates that a bleach solution, of water and chlorine bleach is the only cleaning agent that we can be sure takes the germs away. We spray this on and then wipe it off. My concern is that we don't always get it all wiped off and we don't leave it on for any period of time that would seem appropriate for it to really be a disinfectant. If you have any literature that states specifically that your product would be a suitable substitute for this procedure, I would surely like it. I know bleach kills almost everything, which is good and bad considering your point of view. Many of us in the field of Early Childhood Education would be interested in an non bleach alternative for disinfecting and cleaning not just tables, but toys and other equipment. The bleach is toxic, ruins our clothing and our hands, just to mention a few reasons why we dislike using it. If you have some suitable and not too lengthy literature that supports the use of your product, I would also like to give it to the department of health, that states that there is no alternative even when some teachers have a sensitivity to bleach. I would appreciate a reply as soon as you are able.

Thank you, Janet Clayton.

From: Michael Rochon [mailto:cogentenvironmental@rogers.com]
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:00 AM
To: Jay Clay
Subject: RE: ECOgent for Nursery Schools

Janet, thank you for your questions. The possible transmission of pathogens from environmental surfaces is indeed a public health concern. Many institutions follow a procedure of cleaning with a disinfectant. A fairly strong solution is used, which increases exposure to high concentrations of chemical agents.
The reason public health officials prefer a bleach solution is that, at the recommended concentration of 100 parts per million of chlorine, bleach is effective and leaves no harmful residue.
The problem in trying to accomplish one-step cleaning and disinfecting is that you cannot be certain of accomplishing either goal. When you spray and wipe a surface dry, the contact time required to achieve required sanitizing or disinfecting isn’t met.

After discussions with the Ottawa Public Health Department, my recommendation for cleaning and sanitizing in day care centers are as follows.

Use a diluted solution of ECOgent 1 or 2. We recommend a dilution or 64 parts water to 1 part ECOgent.

This solution may be applied with a spray bottle or mixed in a bucket.

Apply diluted cleaning solution and wipe dry or rinse from surface.

Sanitize these pre-cleaned surfaces with a solution of 100 parts per million of chlorine solution. You should use chlorine test strips to ensure accurate dilution of chlorine (3 ml per 1 liter of water). There are convenient pumps available which meter out the accurate amount for a 4-liter container thus avoiding spilling concentrated chlorine on your clothes.

We recommend diluting the sanitizing solution of chlorine in a bucket rather than a sprayer for two reasons. First, spraying even a very diluted chlorine solution could trigger reactions with individuals even if they are not chemically sensitive. Second, damp wiping the sanitizing solution and allowing it to air-dry, ensures adequate contact time for sanitizing to occur.

We believe it to be unrealistic to assume you can clean and disinfect in one step. By effectively cleaning surfaces you ensure sanitizing without using high concentrations of chlorine, which indeed can be a major health risk.
Janet, I do not believe the diluted solution of chlorine (100 parts per million) poses a significant health risk provided you avoid spraying the solution and you mix it with cool water.
Good sanitation practices are very important to ensure a healthy environment. While it seems more convenient to take shortcuts such as one-step cleaning and disinfecting or sanitizing, the long-term results and health effects almost always prove that shortcuts to good sanitation are inappropriate.

Michael Rochon

From: Jay Clay [mailto:jayclayca@yahoo.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:56 PM
To: gent eco
Subject: thank-you for your quick reply

Thank-you for your quick reply to my questions about using your product at my nursery school. We have taken your advice and will clean first with your spray and then disinfect with a bleach solution using a cloth and not a spray. The advice about wiping with the bleach and not spraying was particularly informative.
Thanks again. Janet

From: Allison Blodig
To: cogentenvironmental@rogers.com
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 10:11 AM
Subject: ECOgent

We produce an aerobic septic system that relies on microbial growth to do its job. Quaternary Ammonia compounds have been very detrimental to our system. Do you think that ECOgent would be helpful in our situation?

From: Michael Rochon [mailto:cogentenvironmental@rogers.com]
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 9:30 AM
To: Allison Blodig
Subject: RE: ECOgent

Alison, we will send info package and samples separately, I think ECOgent might be useful when you have a system in trouble and need to be very careful with the chemicals being discharged into the system.

Thank you for your interest, Michael

From: Raymond Woodhams <raymond.woodhams@utoronto.ca>
To: <cogentenvironmental@rogers.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:08 PM
Subject: Detergent Enzymes

Dear Sir:
I am sending you a copy of my unpublished article on detergent enzymes for your file. I have also included a few other items which may be helpful if you ever decide to pursue a further investigation. One thing that I did not do was find the precise toxicity of quaternary amines in the Handbook of Dangerous Materials although the one most widely used in detergents is known to be extremely toxic to all life forms and has resulted in several human deaths in the States. Since much of the information is technical and can be extremely complex I will give you two reasons for my concern speaking as a chemist (my profession).
First of all, detergent enzymes are chemically related to neurotransmitters, such as acetylcholine bromide, which are essential components of all living organisms. If introduced into the body in even minute quantities, synthetic enzymes of similar structure can be fatal. What do these chemicals do? Imagine if you will a tiny pair of scissors which if released to the body start clipping proteins, lipids and DNA molecules at random, reducing them to fragments. Since the damage is non specific, many disorders could result including Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's, cancer, leukemia, autism or birth defects. No one seems to know. However it is clear that enzymes are very efficient at what they do - degrade protein matter! Note that recent news articles relate Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases to neurotransmitters and the presence of protein fragments in the brain.
The second aspect concerns the other important property of detergent enzymes. Besides being very powerful scission catalysts, detergent enzymes are also strong phase transfer catalysts, that is, these chemicals aid the transport of organic molecules across organic/aqueous interfaces thereby greatly accelerating chemical reactions of all types. Therefore it seems likely that these enzymes could aid the transport organic molecules across cell membranes. They are widely used in industry for the manufacture of other chemicals (see Dehmlow in the references for example). It is not unusual for these phase transfer catalysts (read synthetic enzymes) to accelerate reactions as much as 10,000 fold. Why is this so important for health and safety?
Phase transfer catalysts can promote the transfer of dangerous chemicals (such as pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, etc.) from outside the body into the bloodstream. Hence detergent enzymes may also have an indirect impact on the body by removing the protective layer on the skin and actually helping to absorb other toxic agents. It seems tragic that those individuals that use cleaning agents religiously are unwittingly exposing their bodies to environmental toxins. For that reason I choose not to wash dishes without rubber gloves!
The University of Toronto Engineering Library (second floor stacks) has a fairly extensive section of books and journals relating to detergents where I was able to find much information. However I have not kept up with recent events and my views may already be out of date. If you have any specific problems that you would like me to research on your behalf I would be glad to do so. Thank you for your interest. I am not sure if it will lead to anything. Hopefully not.
Yours sincerely,
Ray Woodhams

From: Michael Rochon [mailto:cogentenvironmental@rogers.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:32 AM
To: raymond.woodhams@utoronto.ca
Subject: quaternary ammonium compounds

Raymond, thank you for your paper. I do not quite understand your reference that quaternary compounds and enzymes are related. Could you clarify? I am in agreement that detergent residues have the potential for absorption and penetration into the body with unknown effects. Alcohol ethoxylates, which are almost always used in combination with quats, are extremely efficient at penetrating skin. In fact, they are used as penetration enhancers to improve the penetration into skin of many skin preparations. The very serious issue, when combining quats and alcohol ethoxylates, is that the potential for skin absorption and penetration is increased. I believe low-dose exposure occurs inadvertently whenever individuals come in contact with environmental surfaces cleaned with these products.

Regards, Michael

Michael Rochon
Cogent Environmental Solutions August 29, 2001
Caledon, ON L0N 1C0

Subject: Detergent Enzymes
Dear Mr. Rochon,
Organic textbooks identify acetylcholine bromide, a quaternary ammonium moiety, as a neurotransmitter which is found in most living organisms including humans (Introduction to Organic Chemistry, Streitwieser, Heathcock and Kosower, Macmillan Publishers, Fourth Edition). These quaternary ammonium structures are major components of biological cell membranes eg. phosphatidylcholine. Neurotransmitters transmit nerve impulses to the muscles. Some quaternary amines are extremely toxic, especially alkaloids such as curare (d-tubocurarine), although they are sometimes used in surgery to relax muscles.
Quaternary amines are also powerful phase transfer catalysts since they are soluble in both water and organic tissues. They can promote rapid hydrolysis of proteins and lipids with which they come into contact. I came across these detergent additives while investigating the cause of surface deterioration of polyester wash basins which had been installed in a hotel. Apparently detergents containing benzyltrimethyl ammonium chloride attacked the basin gel coat and caused it to develop hairline cracks after a few months in service. Eventually all the basins had to be replaced. It appeared that the quaternary amine additive may have accelerated the hydrolysis of the polyester resin so that it became weakened and eventually cracked.
Several persons have died as a result of inadvertent exposure to these additives. In one hospital, a hypodermic needle was used to inject spinal fluid into a patient. The patient immediately went into shock and died. Afterward it was determined that the hypodermic needle was improperly rinsed after being washed with an enzyme detergent and contained sufficient residue to cause death.
Subsequently I searched the literature for further information on the toxicity of these additives but was not very successful. Then I wrote to a number of environmental organizations, government institutions (Health Canada, FDA etc.) to find out if they knew anything about the potential hazards of these detergent additives. So far I have not had a response and I think the issue has not yet been addressed.
To answer your question, ethoxylates are often employed with quaternary amines to increase their cleaning efficiencies. Since the effectiveness of quaternary amines is dependent upon the hydrophilic/lipophilic balance, it is possible that these nonionic compounds simply function as synergists since they are relatively inert.
If it became necessary to find out if these quaternary amines actually penetrate the skin and enter the body, this can easily be done with radioactive (carbon 14) tracers. This test would also reveal whether these compounds migrate to certain specific parts of the body such as the kidney, liver or brain where they could continue to catalyze tissue degradation, a prime cause of Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s diseases. We do not know if it can promote certain autoimmune diseases such as leukemia.
I am still concerned that this issue has not yet been properly considered and may be contributing to the growing incidence of genetic or chronic disorders found throughout nature. Tonnage quantities of these quaternary amines are being dispersed in the environment without a clear understanding of the long-term consequences.
Thank you for calling. I appreciate your concerns.
Yours sincerely,
Raymond T. Woodhams

From: Raymond Woodhams <raymond.woodhams@utoronto.ca>
To: <cogentenvironmental@rogers.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 7:58 PM
Subject: Detergent Enzymes - QACs

Dear Mr. Rochon,
I received a review concerning the toxicity of quaternary amine additives in detergents from the World Health Organization (WHO). I thought that you might like to add this reference to your web site.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/pimg022.htm

I have received reports of health problems by persons using detergents containing these particular additives.

Ray Woodhams

WE WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU
If you would like to comment on the Discussion Paper or have tried our products and wish to comment on the results, please feel free to send us your thoughts.